Melody KingAnnouncement00:02
Welcome to TCNtalks. The goal of our podcast is to provide concise and relevant information for busy hospice and palliative care leaders and staff. We understand your busy schedules and believe that brevity signals respect. And now here's our host, Chris Comeaux. 
Chris ComeauxHost00:24
Hello and welcome to TCNtalks. Our guest today is a good friend, Jack Neil. Dr Jack Neil is the CEO of Hank AI. Welcome, Jack. 
Jack NeilGuest00:32
Thanks, Chris. Great to be here and great to be back. Hopefully I don't repeat too much. 
Chris ComeauxHost00:37
Now I had a couple people say last time like I listened to that one, three times and kept picking up pearls, so Jack's like that, that's why I take him to dinner. So, jack, first, what does our audience need to know about you? 
Jack NeilGuest00:51
Well, my mom thinks I'm special. That's probably key Number one. I was a computer science program and since I was, i can remember I'm thanks to the dot com bubble. I went to medical school because I couldn't get a job doing software. So, in the end I'm a pediatric anesthesiologist and a software developer and started an AI company with a goal of really curing health care of some of its biggest issues that end up showing up as burnout. It's how I get started and what I'm focused on. 
Chris ComeauxHost01:25
It's a little bit more about HANK AI. 
Jack NeilGuest01:27
Yeah, so we sit in the revenue cycle and basically how providers get paid for providing care, We sit in that space. A big part of that is for anything in AI you need data. So the honeypot and the holy grail of data is medical records combined with billing information, because that's how everything gets incentivized. So anything you're trying to do there needs those two data sources. So we sit in that space and provide value to the revenue cycle customers that we service lowering their costs of labor for handling documents, creating claims, all that stuff But really in the end, building models off of that and start to incentivize value and de-incentivize over documentation is really the point. That's why I do it. 
Chris ComeauxHost02:14
Well, i started with you last time last year with this question, but I haven't asked it in a while. But it's such a fascinating answer. So what are you reading these days? 
Jack NeilGuest02:23
Well, a couple, i'd say not as much AI reading at the moment, it's more kind of the run a company. I realized my biggest weakness wasn't my knowledge of AI, it was my knowledge of people and management stuff. I don't know. I think Radical Candor was one of my favorite books, but by Kim Scott. 
02:43
It's about how to deliver direct feedback without insulting someone. It just so reminded me I'm a high school football coach who could spit in your face and you still loved him and you do whatever He made. You feel better than yourself. So just to put the value on creating that relationship with the person is one of the critical ways to be able to give feedback. Otherwise it feels personal, it feels like an attack. But once they know you care, then you're able to provide. 
03:11
When I say, hey, the work you did on this project was no good at all, you don't take it as Jack's mean. He's a turret, he's a boss, he take man. I must have done a bad job and be able to do better. Thanks for telling me. I don't have to sugar coat it. So I don't know. Putting a process around how to get to that point at scale with your direct reports I found to be just very helpful and enlightening and made a lot of sense over the people that I look at in my life, who I found to be the most influential and the ones who could do that to me, who did that to me. 
Chris ComeauxHost03:43
Well, you're making me smile, Jack, because the artificial intelligence quite often when I talk to you it blows my brain and I realize that I've got so much to learn in that area. But you're giving me hope because what you just talked about is my passion, which is the whole aspect of leadership and working with people. It's as much art as science. So always know I can continue to be a good resource for you, and that one is your great resource for me in. 
Jack NeilGuest04:06
AI And one more that's in your wheelhouse. there is the book Getting More. 
04:10
It's an older book by Stuart Diamond, but I never even read the whole book or read just the first few chapters, which was all I needed. But it's about deal making And I think one of the points in there kind of my takeaway from the whole thing, was really that the best deal makers in the world are toddlers. Right, because they negotiate from a position of power. Right, they're always negotiating from a you know, don't? I love you or I've picked something out. They figure out how to negotiate without power And I think we lose that as we get older. We just start to lose that And as we get into positions of power, we start negotiating from such and it kind of sucks. So, anyhow, i love that about the book is to remind yourself that when you're around toddlers, watch them right, like just watch how they negotiate and try to be more like them. 
Chris ComeauxHost05:05
Interesting So you ever read the book. Never Split the Difference. 
Jack NeilGuest05:08
No, I haven't You write it. 
Chris ComeauxHost05:11
It's actually by an FBI hostage negotiator and then takes what you're talking about at a whole different level. In fact, i was just thinking I need to use it. Listen to my blinkers coming up here. Well, let's segue to our official intelligence. Let's talk AI Man. Things have changed since we talked last year, so where are you seeing the application of AI or machine learning and healthcare? accelerate. 
Jack NeilGuest05:35
You're seeing it definitely in the revenue cycle. It's kind of the lowest hanging fruit to some degree, because there's slightly less regulations in that space up until the claim is great, like all the stuff in the middle is no patient involvement, it's not decision making. So you're seeing a lot there. You're seeing actually the technology starting to work, versus just say they work. You're seeing some now coming into clinical decision support. You're seeing ultrasounds that use computer vision to kind of tell you what's on your screen. Whether it's helpful or not we'll see. But you're seeing a lot of the computer vision applications into radiology and radiology type spaces. I think that's the most that you're seeing in the wild at the moment. There's a ton of work around precision medicine, but that's still got a genomic issue where people don't have their genomes mapped typically, so like in the data around it is sketched. So when patients come in and show me like hey, my genome says you shouldn't use Propofol, i'm like okay, great, every other choice is way worse, but I'll follow your recommendation from your beta tested precision medicine system. But so some of that I find is more marketing than actual performance. I think it can mess things up before it makes it better. 
06:53
And lots of computer vision. I mean it's language, right, that's just language. It's kind of one of the books I recommended last time which was the most human human was around, that language type of thing. And so language is just a part of what we do, right. And so just learning our language doesn't mean you learn what we think or know what we know, but it is part of it. And so I think those large language models, they have their place and they're going to massively and fundamentally change a lot of work. That happens. But again, they're just language models. And so my hope, if you kind of take something that Microsoft just released which was called DAX, the Dragon Ambient Experience, basically it sits in the corner of a room with a provider and listens and then writes a clinical note from the interaction. 
07:50
People have been working on it for a long time, but I assume now, because that one's powered by GPT-4 and Nuance, that it probably works. I haven't seen it, but I imagine it works. But if you can do that, and then you can combine that with what we do, which is take notes and make claims and kind of get to this touchless care provision right, which means I can take care of patients without clicking buttons. I think that's coming in hot. That's the part that, again, i'm biased, because that's where we're focused as kind of part of that space, but I think that's really why we picked that, to be honest. So I think my bias is actually our strategy. But yeah, i think that's where you're going to see. A ton of it is around that the large language models and how you apply them into provision of care. That's the hot spot. 
Chris ComeauxHost08:39
Is your approach for Hank AI? has it changed at all with some of the advent of what's happened over this past year with chat, gpt et cetera? 
Jack NeilGuest08:46
Yeah, I mean when we? when I first tested GPT-3, which was forever ago, what? in November, i don't know something like that When I first tested that, i immediately called up our CTO and says all right, finally, this actually works. Right, People have been building things like this. This one actually works. They've actually cracked the nut on this. This is a huge step, which is, like you know, when the internet came around, it's a big step forward. 
09:10
How can we use it right? We got to somehow build on top of this, or, you know, everybody else has got us. So what can we do with it? Where should we embed it? And so now, with the GPT-4 that came out, you know the improvements are nuoncical. Right There, you have to be looking at something specific to see the difference. But for us, we're actually changing the bottom layer of our auto coding stack to utilize it for language embedding. So historically, we were building our own things right, which is a bit of overhead and will never beat them, you know, with their funding and their, you know their focus. So use that. It's priced at a place that's not expensive per se, which actually makes it worthwhile. You can use it in your business as part of your tech stack. So we've changed the base layer, or we're changing technically, we've changed it as of last week, but the base layer of our auto coding stack to actually use that. 
Chris ComeauxHost10:03
Interesting You were when you and I were kind of doing a pre-show. You were talking about the acceleration. In fact, we'll probably we'll still our punchline at the end, because it's it's going to be the quote we end with, but it's a linen quote, and you said that there are decades when nothing happens and then there's weeks where decades happen. How does that apply to what's going on right now? 
Jack NeilGuest10:24
Yeah, i mean, it's just really like in my lifetime. I'm 39 years old, so I'm semi old, i don't know, i'm in the middle I suppose. But you know, i was the first dot com bubble and other things And I feel like the internet was a revolution and we all look back and it's changed some things horribly. I think a lot of like psychological things around social media that it introduced. We haven't figured out how to evolve to yet, but still those things were. But they've. 
10:48
Speed at knowledge transfer, your ability to find out its propaganda or your ability to fact check or learn whenever or anything you want. It's not that every five years you buy an encyclopedia. You can learn. Everything like that fundamentally changed humanity in a massive way. 
11:05
I think that if you use things like GPT just for specific use cases, it's not magic, but the things it does are such a giant augmentation of like. 
11:17
I'm just a product guy, i just write software and I know some helpers Take your patience, but like I don't know marketing, i don't know how to bring in feedback to somebody. I don't know how to like write an investor update that sounds like a publicly traded company. I don't know how to write legal contracts or anything. But you know what, without hiring all those people, i can do a pretty dang good job at that by utilizing something that's seen a lot of them, and can write it in a template, and so it allows me to be more than myself in a lot of realms where I'm not very good. So I think that ability is going to scale people into areas, for better or worse. It means also I'll probably write contracts that a lawyer would say that shit. Sorry, i don't know if I can tell them this. That's crap, but it still depends on your purpose. I think it allows us to scale ourselves into spaces that we're poor at. 
Chris ComeauxHost12:17
Interesting. Well, Jack, you're such a great visionary. What are some mind-blowing examples over the next five to seven years that we're going to see AI, machine learning, and specifically in healthcare. But if you want to take it outside of healthcare, that's fine too. 
Jack NeilGuest12:32
Yeah, i think one. We'll see if everything happens slower than I think. I'm always wrong on cost and wrong on time, so just take those into context. But I think you'll see this doctor of the future being more like the doctor of the past than the doctor of today. I think, or provider, you can use different terms, but it's NP or PA or whatever. But the people that are patient facing, i think the reduction in button clicks is going to be. It might feel slow, but I think we're at the precipice of turning the corner where every update doing EMR is going to start having less button clicks. 
13:08
It's not going to be overnight, but slowly you're going to reach a point where these technologies are coming together to make eye contact come back into healthcare, to make empathy and not volume come back into healthcare. It'll be a slow change. You might not notice it and it happens Just like you didn't notice eye contact left until all of a sudden you realize it did. I think it'll come back slowly. That's what I hope. Maybe I'm optimistic here, but I do hope and I do think some of what we're doing, but also things other people are doing that fill out that space, will bring that eye contact back. 
13:48
That's number one. Number two is going to be stuff around precision medicine, but there's so many nuances here. We'll see how this lines up. A lot of precision medicine right now is being built by people who are focused on areas under the curve and statistical relevance and not actually this is good for a patient. I think it's the problem when you have a lot of really smart developers or tech folks using data to create data outcomes. Data doesn't necessarily replicate or it's not really good at pinch to bedside. So I'm less convinced that you're going to see a massive improvement in the clinical decision support tools as part of why we didn't go there as a company to start with. 
14:29
I just think that you're more likely to cause them to make poorer decisions by making them feel the legal obligation to follow some suggestion rather than follow their own experience and knowledge. I'm less convinced clinical decision support will get us there and I'm not convinced that five to seven years we're going to see anything really impactful around precision medicine. But we will start seeing social determinants of health feed in the stuff that, like your provider can't look at. There's too much data. You're going to find ways that it sort of gives some type of score on. You know this person has terrible habits outside of you know your setting. Just start seeing some of that. 
15:08
Other data coming in from Apple Watch is another thing. So how it's implemented into our care, most people are looking at doing it at some type of scoring system that's like green to red or something, and as a provider I'm not sure what I would do with that. So again, i'm not very convinced of that one either. But and lastly, i'm like one quick one here nothing I do is quick but. But the last one would be that I think you're gonna see a lot of patient-facing things for better or worse, and patients will start self-diagnosing more than they're even doing now. 
15:39
Right, because you'll have conversational abilities to say I'm sneezing, what should I do? and it asks you for more questions, and they're gonna be adapting to how you're talking to it and then in the end it's gonna say it's probably one of those, these four things go see your doctor, so I mean. Or they'll try to somehow like prescribe, so that could come in. I mean, that's exciting to think about if it actually were to work and it could be validated. I just feel like that's another one where the validation will come much, much later than the actual product. So you'll have the scary time where the product is available, no validation behind it, like going to a random person who says they know healthcare stuff but they don't have any real credentials and taking no tests so, so, just listening to you, it just was striking me as the art versus science of healthcare. 
Chris ComeauxHost16:26
It's healthcare one of the toughest places to apply artificial intelligence. First, like do you foresee there are other industries that's gonna make a greater impact before us? 
Jack NeilGuest16:36
I can't super speak to the other industry side because I focus so much on healthcare, but I do think healthcare is always the. 
16:44
It's the one where the most, you know, startups go to die compared to other spaces. I mean it's because it's not just does it work, it's there's so much regulation around it, there's so much you know. When you judge AI or anything, automation of these or AI automation when you're building automation one of the key things and I wish I'd known this earlier in life, but then I've learned because you have to you have to look at it and say is this automation gonna be judged like, what is success? is success human level equivalence or is it perfection? and there's a difference because humans aren't perfect. So like if success is as good as a human, like for analytics and stuff like that, that's normally fine, but like for self-driving cars, it's not fine. You need perfection because we know people hit, you know run over stuff and cause regs and we're kind of okay with that, but we're not okay if a car does it by itself, ever, ever right. 
17:37
So you're kind of going up against the perfection side and in healthcare I think that you're. That becomes the sort of augmentation versus automation. So you're either building tools to help a provider so we can feel blame a provider which then makes the provider run happy because now I've got more stuff. That's making legally responsible. So I think that's part of what makes it really hard. And other part of that is, you know, healthcare they're right not a privilege. So you've also got this. 
18:03
That whatever you do to some degree has to be accessible to all or you're gonna get, you know, elizabeth Warren's gonna beat you down. You know just, there's gonna be politicians and people who beat you down for providing things that the masses can't have. So you also have to make sure whatever you're doing, you know, is it biased? wasn't just trained on Palo Alto? patients, right, like whatever you have. All those things make it a lot harder and it makes it a much longer game. But it should be, because you can't move fast and break things in healthcare and I tell you, kill people. So I mean you do have to validate and go slow. 
Chris ComeauxHost18:43
Well, let me take a little bit different tack those recently I went back in. I took my own medicine. I've quoted many times Jim Collins. Good to great that the chapter on technology as an accelerator. I at some point I need to write a blog about it because I think is the lost chapter Collins did this was during the dot-com bubble and so if you remember what he did, jack, he went, did this huge data analysis. 
19:05
He had an army of MBAs and they looked for those organizations that kind of separated from the pack and they went and dissected those organizations and he said there's any assumption I would have had going in it would have been some whiz bang. Technology is what differentiated those companies. And he said it wasn't the case. What was the case? as they understood what they did so well, and they apply technology as an accelerator. 
19:30
And what hits me is that we don't look at technology that way in healthcare. Oh, we're going to buy this EMR and it's going to solve all of our problems. That's the exact opposite of what he described. What he described is we understand these are our processes, so we're going to go choose this technology and it's going to take what we're doing and it's going to accelerate to the next level, whereas what happens in healthcare is they buy an EMR or we buy an EMR and, like I literally heard a CEO say this, i had no idea was going to change all of our processes. 
20:00
And I'm sitting there going. What do you mean? of course it's going to change all of your processes because of the way you went about it, whereas we choose or at least what Collins was saying is these organizations that went from good to great, understood. This is our process. We're now going to apply technology and it's going to enhance and further it, as opposed to here's what you're doing oh, that got thrown out of the window and here's this new thing, and then you're really pissed off. It's a totally different paradigm than how, i think, most people in healthcare. So so, given that framing, do you think maybe there's some practical areas where technology could and should be being applied and maybe people are, i want to say, missing it and maybe they're not thinking of it? 
Jack NeilGuest20:42
yeah, it's a complicated question and I'll start with like one thing, even in our, you know, personal to me, because one of our unique in our three uniqueness through the EOS process, one of them is disrupt without disruption. And that's sort of coming at that point right, which is do your best to not just uproot workflows that don't have to be to, to migrate the process. So again, it doesn't always mean that's possible, but it's just something to keep in mind don't intentionally try to disrupt the stuff, the workflow, right so to that. But I mean, i think you know, with your mention of the EMR there, our biggest issue is that the EMRs like what problems did the EMRs come to solve? why did they? was it that, oh, our providers are slow, let's give them an EMR, they'll be faster? that wasn't it was it that? 
21:30
oh, they're getting terrible care. Let's put it in the EMR, they'll be better. That wasn't it right they came? 
21:37
to be because it was one of I think it was Obama's one of those during his time and I blame an Obama, i'm just saying it was during his time in office. That was it was meaningful use under one of the I remember which act that was, but it was a meaningful use provision which was basically we wanted all system, we wanted health care to be documented in a system where we could get to the data, and it was really for billing, but still it's if we wanted everything to be data, not paper, not locked up, which sounds great. We've had this March towards data forever. The problem was we just turned all of the forward-facing, patient-facing providers into data entry clerks and That's crappy. 
22:18
Clearly, in hindsight That's really crappy, but at the time I don't know if it was. That clearly wasn't the intent, but that is absolutely what has happened. I mean, find a nurse who's not clicking buttons the majority of their day, right? I mean you won't. I mean that's what they do now. Half of their time is button-clicking. So and as provider me, you know, as an anesthesia provider I'd say 80% of my day is button-clicking, maybe more right. 
22:47
I say, 80%, probably. Um, so you've ended up creating a system that we're all just kind of slaged a button-clicking in healthcare and the patients are just, you know, we're just data collecting from them. So that's the thing that's sitting in our face. It's just like what the hell? like why did this happen? Like how did this happen? And so, while technology is what caused the problem, hopefully and I think we are now finally at the point where Technology is coming to fix the problem- But it's deeper than just making an EMR with less button clicks. 
23:24
It is actually all embedded in regulations and we keep adding. You know MIPS and MACRA right trying to do quality measurements added more clicks. You know regulation has led to it. But CMS did put out a. They had an initiative about two years ago, right before COVID. They put out a you know something, not paperwork What if the patient's not paperwork initiative or something. And it's beautiful on paper but nothing's actually happened. 
23:49
But yeah, i think the tech that's coming, the stuff that Microsoft did, the stuff that we're doing, i think there's a lot of coming. There's a lot of, you know, a lot coming around now that's really focused on the burnout, not because anyone cares about burnout. I mean, cfo doesn't care about burnout unless people are quitting, but. But people are starting to just mean like they should, but they don't, so unless they can fire somebody or not hire somebody. And this is my callous view of the world. But I mean it's in. In business It's typically There's values on the wall and then there's the values in the boardroom, and the values of the boardroom are typically much different. And when I started this tech company and the tech folks were telling me we need core values. I'm like what the hell, like? why would we need that? they're on every hospital's wall, but when you work in the hospital, you never feel those things right. That's marketing for patients, right. 
Chris ComeauxHost24:39
We need it. We need to baptize you and us you need to come hang out with us. 
Jack NeilGuest24:43
Tell us people because, it shouldn't be what you're describing. I know what My experience in hospitals all over the place was it's marketing for patients and it doesn't actually. But But in the tech world it actually does right. It's how we hire and fire. It's how, every quarter, when we analyze people, let's get it one, it capacity to do it, and then our core values, and you get a good, bad or needs improvement. So I, i get it now. I get it now, but I don't even know where that came from. 
25:11
This in this, in this answer, but um, it was kind of just. 
Chris ComeauxHost25:15
You know, some of the values don't well, i think where you, i think where you're going is that The technology was taking us away from things that we said were important. And it feels like you're describing that there's a seasons coming that's going to give us the opportunity to those who can be reconciled. Um, i, i'm recording a show that's kind of like here's what's coming. It's a really good 360 degree Analysis of the environment and then it's an acronym. My wife actually helped me last year. Like here's what you got to do grow, so flow and no. And then this year We're adding something or in D and so. But the flow is something I don't hear a lot of people talking about. But when you create friction With your customer, if you and I were just starting like, for instance, i'll, i'll pick on, i won't say their name, but they lease out office space like hotel in office space. 
26:08
I've never encountered a company that I swear I was working more at their success than mine. The friction was awful, so much so I'm like was beside myself. I'm like how do these people stay in business? So it's an example what I mean by friction, but then also friction. And then I actually start asking the person on the phone And she's like you just don't understand what it's like to work here. So then she shares with me all the friction Her employer was creating with her, which then was creating friction with me as the customer. So everywhere those friction points or opportunities for improvement, which is the flow. How can you make it flow much better? And you're giving me hope that we may finally have technology that can enhance that, as opposed to increase the friction, simple sentence, like one of them that we have on a lot of our Our marketing materials. 
Jack NeilGuest26:51
Internal stuff is really automate the work you hate, right? I mean that should be when you're looking at what to automate. That's your lowest hanging fruit because that's where your culture problems are coming from in the first place, right? So that's the one you get less friction on, right. When you start automating things people love. Now, i mean it might make sense financially, but you start to get more friction, right, if it's like, hey, you don't need to talk to the patient anymore. 
27:16
I mean like hold on that's, unless some don't like that, right. But. But most providers kind of like You might get more friction than just hey, you don't need to click all the vital signs anymore. I'm just making up example. 
Chris ComeauxHost27:29
But, but, but. There's a bunch of work right to be eliminated. The work that we don't like is Probably where most the application Opportunity is. It would have to be get really advanced when you start to eliminate work that you do like. 
Jack NeilGuest27:46
Example, right, i mean it's, it's you know, what you automate really has little to do with whether you like it or don't like it, it's just much the tech capable of doing. and then second is gotcha I Can, you will, people buy into it, but like, if the tech can't do it anyhow, then like yeah. I mean it can't do it. So, like you know, there's not a robot to do a colonoscopy, it just can't do it. So, when you like that one or not, it can't do it. So like you can't automate that one. 
28:10
That's why, like the sign behind my head is you know, help the humans as our logo It's. It's that, you know, freeing people to do more of the work that they enjoy is the goal. Now It may mean there's too many people doing a job because 80% of their time was button clicking. So if you eliminate the button clicking, then you might not need all those people or they can spend more time. Right, you know with with their work They're doing and you know there's a trade-off. You know the Industrial Revolution. You know people quit stamping every machine press right, and now you know They just managed the machines doing the stamping press. 
28:42
And I was at Sierra Nevada, up in Asheville, the other day and walking through I took a video, the assembly line, you know, doing beer bottles, and I'm thinking like, like, does anyone miss that there's not 50 people sticking labels on beer bottles? I mean, is that something that we really are sad that doesn't happen anymore, and so there'll be a transition phase. We realized a lot of the work We were doing was actually computer work to begin with. There'll be some time, but then what's? 
29:05
left will end up. Every revolution like this ends up with people in a better financial position. Historically speaking right. Maybe this one's different, but typically history repeats itself. Every historical transition, yeah at least it rhymes It's still fun to say Yeah. people have always, historically, ended up better off financially whenever you've been able to automate. You know low-level work, so it should be the same. And to your art and science question, you know clearly the I, the art of healthcare is That tactful Empathy, that emotional knowing when to say is the EQ part not the. 
29:40
IQ part and My hope and it might be just an optimistic thinker here, but my hope is that that's what ends up being left for healthcare Right and that the IQ part Is the part that we continually whittle away at that is not the most important part of healthcare. 
Chris ComeauxHost30:01
Yeah, that's well said. And my mentor, dr Lethe, or who you've heard me talk about quite often, jack, he said if you, if what you do, can be replaced by a robot, it should, because you should do your work with such virtuosity, which is usually reserved for like think of a violinist or a vintor, a vintor who makes just incredible wines. You do, you work in such a way that that part can't be replaced by a robot. And that was actually one of the very last blogs he wrote and I think it was said the robots are coming. Oh my, i think I use that title for you and I last year, so Jack any. 
30:38
Thoughts. 
Jack NeilGuest30:39
I think I'm not particularly talk about. It's a it's a great thing to say, but you never hear someone saying that whose job is actually at risk. I Mean, if you think of who you've heard say that. I mean I Never heard like a truck driver say if this truck can drive itself, it should. I mean, you know You have to with the context of who's saying. And again, i say it too, so I'm not judging other people, i'm just saying that it's a interesting out. Yeah, i'd say on like on chat, gpd stuff. 
31:08
What gives me so much hope about this is I hate writing letters, i hate writing long things. I want I like three bullets right, and I want to be done. And I think the beauty, going back to the most human-human conversation and stuff is that we're getting closer to the point For better or worse. I guess there's gonna be some worse side of this, but where our emails, our conversations, are gonna have less. Hey, chris, is great to see you again. Hope the kids are good. How was that vacate? take out all the fluff, right, and it'll just be. You know, podcast Monday at four. Be there 15 minutes early. Here are five questions, right, and that's it, because otherwise I'm gonna take what you put in your long form, put it in there and say, what do I need to know? and it's gonna give me your Bullets that you started with. You put your bullets in there when it wrote the long thing, so like right. 
31:54
I think you start to get to a more efficient Communication system and style when the opening and closing, just like a game of chess, can be automated. You just stick to the meat right, you stick to the middle, and that gives people like me hope, who strives for efficiency and everything I do. So I could play the game with people who want long form. I can stick it in there and say make those three pages, and then they're happy. 
32:16
I could take the three pages and stick it in there and make it five bullets and then I'm happy. So I Think it's fun, it's uncovering what really is Human and what are the commonalities in human language, because that's why I can write stories. Well, it's because every story follows a script, right. Interesting it's the most just past three months, to me even the most exciting time to be alive, just because you finally crossed a threshold. So now it's off to the race. 
Chris ComeauxHost32:46
Wow, all right, Jack. Well, i think that's a great place to end. Thank you for the work that you're doing and for our listeners. I'll leave you with a quote that I alluded to earlier. Jack picked it out. It's there are decades when nothing happens, and then there's weeks where decades happen. That's by Vladimir Lenin. Thanks for listening to TCNtalks.